Delegation, Staying Organized & Line Quality – Draftsmen S1E22

Delegation, Staying Organized & Line Quality – Draftsmen S1E22

Marshall: Hi Stan? You’re looking relaxed. Stan: Wasup… You ready to talk about me? Marshall: Yeah, let’s talk about you. [Chuckles]
you’re looking like you’re in a confident and relaxed mood. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Let’s focus on your life and business
today, shall we? Stan: It’s my favorite subject. Marshall: Okay. [Laughter]
Speaker 1: You’re really going all the way down this bit. [Laughter] Stan: Yeah all of it. [Intro music] Marshall: Well, we are here today at the Proko
studios and I guess I’m sort of taking charge of this. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Because I have some questions for
you. Stan: Yeah. This was not my idea –
Marshall: No. Stan: – For the people listening. Marshall: It was my idea. Stan: Marshall’s idea. Marshall: Actually, it wasn’t just my idea
– Stan: Whose idea was it? Marshall: People asked about the workings
of Proko. One of them said “I want to know some stories about how the anatomy course
happened” – Stan: Okay. Marshall: – and so, here is the justification
for all of this that everybody already knows that you started this company in your in a
bedroom in your parents’ house – Stan: Yes. Marshall: And then it turned into work and
moving it into your house and then turn it into this studio and there’s quite a bit of
history you’ve already mentioned. But what I’m interested in is how you make it work.
The scheduling, who does what jobs, that scrum thing that you explained so –
Stan: Well, maybe you should talk to Sean then. [Chuckles]
Marshall: Sean sort of runs the studio? Stan: No, I just like to make him think he
does. Marshall: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well… [Chuckles]
Sean: It’s so rude! Marshall: We’re starting to see leadership
strategy; make him think he runs the studio. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Make him think it was his idea. Marshall: Very strategic. [Chuckles] Well –
Stan: No, that’s the exact opposite of what I do. Marshall: How do you mean? Stan: I just make fun of people all day. Marshall: I’ve got some more specific questions
but if – if just what I’ve thrown out to you, what do you – what do you want to talk about
– about how – the workings of Proko? Stan: I don’t know
Marshall, you – you – I told you that I’ll be glad to talk about it if you lead the way
and ask me questions that you think other people would be interested in. Marshall: So I’m doing my job poorly right
now? Stan: You trying to make me ask myself questions. Marshall: I’m trying to put it on you, yeah. Stan: Okay, let’s keep this short and then
if people actually care and want to know about more, they can ask in the comments and we’ll
do another episode. I’ll talk about whatever. Marshall: All right. Stan: What do you wanna know? Marshall: Let’s – let’s start with quantifiable
questions. Stan: Okay. Marshall: How many –
Stan: Should I continue like this? Marshall: Oh you’re fine. Stan: This is actually very comfortable. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Okay. Marshall: I’m glad to see you in a comfortable
mode like this. Stan: I’m lying down Marshall: It’s making me feel more comfortable.
Okay, question one; about how many projects are you working on right now? Stan: Oh, Jesus Christ! Marshall: I knew that was too hard a question
for you, it takes some counting. Stan: Oh my god! I don’t know. Too, it’s way
too many. It’s too – Sean: Do you wanna try to list them? Stan: We can start with the big ones, right?
Like let’s start with the courses. Stan: So we got anatomy that we’re currently
working on, perspective – Marshall: Mm-hm. Stan: The basics course. Marshall: Mmm-hmm. Stan: There’s sculpture basics with Andrew
Keith. There is a drapery course which is kind of early stages with another instructor.
I don’t think we’ve announced it yet so I don’t wanna say anything. Marshall: There’s this podcast. Sean: Dynamic Anatomy. Stan: Dynamic Anatomy. I’m kind of like 1/3
of the teacher of that one. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: I’m not the main teacher. Marshall: Mm-hm. Stan: The demo series where we filmed a bunch
and we’re still – we’re gonna be releasing a few – few more and then I’m not sure how
many more will do after that. Marshall: Mm-hm. Stan: Probably one on light and shade and
we’re very early stages on that. Lighting and shading. That’s what Dorian actually –
Marshall: Oh, great way. Stan: I’m not sure if that’s gonna go all
the way to a full course, it might just be like a series of videos but we’ll see. Marshall: Oh wow, I’m pleased. Stan: I hope it becomes a course. Marshall: I’d too. Stan: Okay, so that – that’s all the course
is huh… Currently in the works. Sean: Was Loginov, is that a demo or
is is that a – Stan: It’s a demo. We have –
Sean: Is Westerberg a demo or is that a mini course? Stan: Oh, that’s a mini course as well. So
Aaron Westerberg is doing a thing on color, Ivan Loginov, we’re flying him out in a few
months to come and teach here for like three weeks. Record stuff for like 3 weeks to do
a thing on portrait and shading and stuff. Marshall: Is the AI stuff you’re doing a – a
studio wide thing or is just something you’re doing personally? Stan: We have people in the house –
Marshall: You’re gonna have – you haven’t – gonna have a way that you – there’s a way
that people will upload their box drawings and get feedback? Stan: Yeah. And that’s actually very close.
So yeah, like you said the podcast, the AI stuff, skulls, book of my art, getting ready
for Black Friday, making a whole bunch of videos for the 12 Days of Proko, there’s the
new website that we’re building… Marshall: Uh-huh, Proko 2.0? Stan: Proko 2.0 with social stuff and critiques
um, and that’s just a giant thing that has many projects in itself – within itself. Marshall: Nothing to do yet though with like
government’s world takeover banking systems? Sean1: We’re getting into retail or into
real estate soon? Marshall: No, we’re not. [Chuckles]
Sean: We started with this room. Stan: Oh well, I mean, building the studio
was a huge project. Marshall: Yeah. Sean: It’s still on going. Stan: Yeah, and it’s still on-going. There’s
so much involved, like we just put a sink in and just by – it’s enough, I don’t even
– Marshall: But I understand it’s a – it’s complex. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: There’s a lot of things you’re doing. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: One wonders, when they’re on the
outside of it, how do you and your team manage all this? Stan: Well, we have the scrum system. Okay,
I’m done looking down, let me sit – I’m gonna sit back up. Marshall: I’m sure interested in this scrum
system thing. Stan: I already talked about it and I to – failed
miserably last time I brought it up. Marshall: I agree. Stan: It’s a way of teams to collaborate and
prioritize tasks on a regular basis. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: So that you’re not just working on things
just because there’s something on your mind. You don’t just switch because you’re – you’re
excited about it. You prioritize every week, you decide what you’re gonna do and you do
it. We have a backlog of tasks that we know have to get done at some point and they’re
rated by priority and every two weeks we go to the backlog, we move things into the sprint
based on what we think is the most important or the most time-sensitive. Sean: Yeah, that’s a problem. Stan: Sometime – sometimes – yeah, that’s
a – that’s a balance that kind of sucks is that when you have too many projects, a lot
of them become time-sensitive and the important ones have to not get done because other ones
are time sensitive. Every task has a certain amount of points that we give it based on
how complex it is. Marshall: Okay. Stan: And we know that we – we can each get
about 7 points done per day per person, like based on our history, we’re on our 128th sprint
now. Marshall: Wow! Stan: So we know about how many points we
can get done as a team per sprint and so if we put in all our tasks for the sprint and
it’s way more than what we think we can do, we know that we need to prioritize a little
more because we’re not going to be able to do all these, so which ones are more important?
So we scale it down. Marshall: Here just an initial response to
this. It was in the 80s and 90s and early 2000s and almost all my clients were advertising
agencies, and they were teams and some of them were big teams and their jobs were so
complex. I never wanted that job and I noticed that there were two different worlds that
were happening. The creatives tended to do whiteboard sessions that were chaotic and
brainstorming and getting everything up there and find connections and that was exciting.
There was a lot of emotion involved as I observed it the few times I did. But then there was
a whole other side to it, that was the – the kind that most people don’t take to which
is that we have to have horizontal and vertical columns and that one represents time and one
represents whatever else that it represents and that these things were much less chaotic,
much more methodical, much more left-brained I guess you’d say. I never did learn anything
about it but I always felt like it would have done me better to have had some attention
to that. Stan: Yeah. It could be applied to a personal
thing. I mean, the scrum thing is for teams but it can be applied to a team of one as
well. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: Just for yourself. Um, you wouldn’t
have the meetings but you just do it yourself. You’d still – every week you would maybe think
about what could be improved and you still have – you still plan out your next two weeks,
part with prioritizing and it helps to have a backlog of stuff that needs to be done.
All that stuff I think can still be extremely helpful for a person so. Marshall: Now, that’s one of many systems
because I know there’s also other things that people say “we use this. We use this”. Was
the scrum method the first and the one that you – you found and then ran with it or was
there another – Stan: What were we doing this for? Sean: We started with the waterfall method.
The method failed horribly. Stan: The waterfall method –
Marshall: What does that mean? Stan: It means you – you put your tasks in
a calendar. Sean: More like one begets the next,
begets the next, begets the next. So, it’s like a bouncing little thing where it’s like
if one thing gets delayed, everything gets delayed and it –
Stan: Yeah. Sean: There’s a big weakness to that
and that – Stan: Everything constantly has to be moved
forward because you’re – Stan: You’re always optimistic. Marshall: Yeah right. It’s always takes longer
is harder than you expected it would be so. Stan: Yeah. And new things come in, they have
to move other things. Marshall: Yeah. You know, looking at how – animation
studios do it where the wall will be covered with a chart that’s got color bars and it’s
definitely time oriented because it has to be done by a deadline and so you see we’ve
got the writers and we’ve got the storyboard artists and we’ve got the animators and you
see all these color bars that are interweaving, and it’s so thought through and so down to
a science as well as an art and it has occurred to me more than once that most art training
does not include schedule management and project management, which is why I thought it might
be interesting to talk about. I’m not the person to talk about it. You’ve done it and
you’re rolling with it, that’s why I was interested. Stan: Okay, yeah. Marshall: Oh, here’s something… You mentioned
Walt Disney as an influence on you and an inspiration to you early when I met you because
he – he started this Empire and as he went on, he had many other people doing the work
including even the most creative work and that seemed to be a kind of touchstone for
you as to what you’re doing. Stan: You talking about delegation and had
to approach – Marshall: Delegation was a big part of it,
yes. Stan: I’m in favor of delegation, I think
it’s a huge part of growing a business um, even if it’s a really small business. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: I was delegating tasks before I had
any employees working in my house or in my you know, yeah, my –
Marshall: By hiring out? Stan: Hiring – like freelancing on oDesk,
remember that? Marshall: I do. Stan: What is it called now? Upwork. Sean: Upwork, yeah. Stan: Um, yeah like the animation in the figure
drawing course was done by freelancers. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: Because that was what I could afford
at the time. I was like, okay, I want to make these these lessons fun by including some
3d animation in it. I don’t have time to do that because if I want to keep up on the schedule,
I have to – I only have time to focus on like the script, the drawings and the editing.
And so, I hired out the animation and eventually as revenue went up, I would – I hired out
editing and then the marketing and publishing on social media and on YouTube. Marshall: How many people do you have working
for you as employees and as contractors. Stan: Not including me and Melissa, we have
six full-time employees. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: And then as far as freelancers, we have
actually well like into like 15 16 now. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Because if you count the AI teams and
the people working on the website – Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: So that’s like 10 full-time freelancers. Marshall: Wow! Stan: Yeah. Marshall: And this came from you doing it
all by yourself… Stan: The portrait course were 100% me and
then the figure drawing course is when I started delegating animation. Marshall: Now, for some people, delegation
is difficult – Stan: Yeah, control. Marshall: Was it you? Stan: Kind of yeah. Yeah, it was. Marshall: Can you –
Stan: It is difficult to give up control because you think like “oh I – I want it done in a
such a specific way” – Marshall: Yeah. Stan: “how is someone gonna do it the way
I have it in my mind?” Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Um, you – you have to start small. You
delegate something you’re comfortable delegating and eventually you’ll be comfortable with
other things. I first thought I was – I thought like there’s no way I’m gonna delegate scriptwriting
because of the research. Marshall: Because it was your voice. It was
your thing. Stan: It was like yeah, it was like my voice.
Which I still don’t delegate 100% of it. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: But I delegate the beginning part of
it. The research, getting all the information, organizing it in a way that is easy to understand
and – and then putting a few jokes in there or even and then passing on to me and then
I read it and I will make it into my own voice but I don’t have to do it from the very beginning. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: I’ve delegated as much as I am comfortable
with as far as that task goes. Marshall: So the script writing was something
at first you’re not gonna delegate – Stan: I wasn’t comfortable with that and I
didn’t think it was even possible. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: But I grew towards that and then at
one point I was like “screw it, I’m gonna try it”
Marshall: Yeah. Stan: “see what happens” and then I was like
“oh this actually kind of works!”. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: It didn’t – I wanted it to work where
I was like they write the whole thing and then I just read the script but I realized –
Marshall: But it doesn’t work like that. Stan: – like, no, I actually can’t do the whole thing but I can still keep you know –
Marshall: Yeah. Stan: I can keep part of it though and delegate
it. Marshall: So, you’ve cut down the amount of
time that you spend – Stan: Oh, by a lot. Marshall: – on the script by a lot. Stan: Yes. Marshall: Yeah. And do you miss it? Stan: No. Marshall: Really? Stan: I don’t miss it… Marshall: Okay. Stan: I don’t necessarily enjoy writing and
that’s not my thing. Marshall: Uh-huh. Stan: Yeah. No, I don’t miss it. Sean: It’s like do you really want to
read through Grey’s Anatomy – [Laughs] Stan: No. Sean: – and like do all the research?
So I guess it’s interesting but it’s also like kind of boring. Stan: I mean, I kind of do. Like I still do
that. Like when I get those script back, I still do some of my own research and I go
through my common references and I want to make sure I understand everything. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: But I don’t go through every resource
and read all of Grey’s Anatomy on that topic. I’ll try – I’ll read her notes –
Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: And I’ll trust that she got it correctly.
You know, got it correct. So, yeah. No, I don’t miss it, I don’t miss it. Marshall: Yeah, because it’s interesting,
yeah? Stan: It gives me more time to do other things
that I enjoy more than writing scripts. Marshall: Right, and there’s gonna be some
people who just love to write. Stan: Yeah, you don’t have to delegate that. Marshall: Right. Stan: First, or wherever. You could keep doing
that if that’s the thing you really want to do on your own and all the other things you
don’t, then delegate those things. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: You get to choose what you delegate.
Just don’t think that you are the only one that can do that thing, people are competent. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: If you hire the right people. There’s
some people that are not and will actually make the job hard. If you hire the wrong person,
it’ll actually make it worse. So make sure that your hiring process is good. You know,
I’ve made some stumbles. [Chuckles]
Marshall: Over and over you hear from filmmakers though that if you’ve got a good script and
you cast it well, – Stan: Yeah. Marshall: – and the casting includes your
– your director of photography, your lighting people, your costume designer, all of the
other people involved in it. If you got those two things, the film almost makes itself.
It doesn’t but it almost does. It works in those – Don Richardson used to say “you hire
the right people and you let them do their job”, so that is the way in which directing.
He did better part of 1000 vision shows and that’s what he learned is you just get the
right people on your team. Now, back to Disney: Disney came to the point where he never animated,
he didn’t write the script or storyboard – Stan: Yeah. Marshall: He was sort of the head of the company
and had all of these other people doing that kind of thing –
Stan: Yeah. Marshall: And your goal with this as far as
your activity is to steer? Stan: Kind of. I guess my equivalent would
be to never necessarily – not teach another course, right? Marshall: How do you mean? Stan: It would be where I have other instructors
teaching on the platform that I’m building and I don’t teach a course. Marshall: Mm-hmm. You would like that? Stan: Eventually. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: I still have a lot of courses I want
to teach. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: But eventually, yeah. Marshall: Wow, okay. Stan: Eventually I would like to just make
art. I mean, I think that there’s a lot of artists and teachers out there that could
do a better job than me if they’re given the right tools –
Marshall: Yes. Stan: And so why not. Marshall: That’s part of what you’re doing
is you’re going to enable other people to do their best –
Stan: Yeah. Marshall: – teaching. You’ve built a forum,
the Disney of online education. Not just art education right? Stan: Wow! Thank You Marshall. Marshall: Not just art education, right? You’ll
move into other things too? Stan: Maybe. Marshall: You don’t know? Stan: I’m not sure. Marshall: Okay, well –
Stan: But yeah, like that’d be cool if it’s just – if we just focus on education of anything. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Hey, have – I got an idea
for a course that you ought to do. Stan: Alright, I’m excited to hear your idea. Marshall: It’s a business management for artists. Stan: Ohh! Marshall: That’s what they need. Stan: I’m so excited to do that course. Marshall: You should start on that this week. Stan: Oh, okay. We’ll put it in our scrum. [Chuckles]
Sean: Gonna be our 16th task. Stan: Yeah level one priority. [Chuckles] urgent and important. Sean: Cancel the Anatomy. [Chuckles]
Marshall: All right, thank you. That’s uh, I’m happy with this. Stan: All right. Ad: This episode’s sponsored by Proko drawing
lessons. If you want to learn how to draw, if you want to improve your knowledge of figure
drawing and figure Anatomy, look no further than There are hundreds of free
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discounted package deals. Head over to and start learning. Marshall: I got an idea… Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Voicemail. Stan: Yeah, that’s a good idea. Marshall: Wow! I was kind of hoping for a
more enthusiastic response. I was trying to Stan: I heard squeaking somewhere. Like a chair squeak afterwards. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Can you say that again? Marshall: Hey, I got an idea –
Stan: Voicemails. [Chuckles]
Marshall: Ask me what the most important element of comedy is? Stan: What’s the important element of –
Marshall: Timing. [Laughter]
Stan: How was my timing in the last one? Marshall: Well, we’ll talk about it afterwards. Voicemail: Hey Stan and Marshall?
This is Luca from Georgia. I was wondering if you had any advice for improving line quality?
Um, I just still kind of struggle with making my drawings look interesting. Um, it’s my
lines and I was just wondering if there’s anything you’d recommend for trying to improve
line quality, whether that’s like exercises or artists to look at. Thanks, have a good
one. Stan: Several things, practice through lines. [Laughter] no, I mean, yes actually but you
know, different exercises. Like it depends on what you’re trying to improve; are your
straight lines not straight? Are they wobbly? Well put two dots on the page and try to connect
them and do that a thousand times. Practice getting the the feathering, right? So just
do that over and over again. Thin too thick or filling in a large box with an even tone
is also just being able to handle a pencil. But there are – some people have the issue
where they put too many lines down. They’re like – they’re ghosting or they’re searching,
right up? Is that the term? Marshall: Searching along, yeah. Stan: They’re searching. If that’s your issue,
then maybe, I don’t know, use pen. Marshall: You mean a classic steel pen or
you mean just a pen that makes a permanent mark? Stan: A permanent mark. I think pencil sometimes
gives people the impression they could put something down and erase it later, but a pen
is used more permanent you have to be a little more deliberate with it. You got to slow down
I think. Speaker 1: Mm-hmm. Peter on his book he says
“only use pen”. Stan: Only use pen. Sean: Through the duration of his book. Marshall: Cuz it’s a commitment. Your line
is committed. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Yeah. Um, circles, make sure you’re
practicing with your shoulder and your elbow, get the dynamic lines going. Don’t – don’t
use your fingers and your wrist unless you’re getting those fine details. Marshall: Well you’ve done a video on this,
haven’t you? Stan: Yeah, how to control and – hold and
control your pencil. Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: I don’t think it covers everything but
it talks about holding and controlling your pencil. Marshall: Yeah, if you link to it, maybe that
might be the best thing for him to go. Stan: Yeah. I don’t talk about pens in that
one, it’s just pencil. Marshall: I’m doing an evening in pen and
ink – introduction to pen and ink materials and techniques and it’s hard for me to give
advice on line quality. It’s like going to me for fashion advice. It’s not anything that
I’ve showcased positively. But, there is a book by Arthur Guptill called ‘Rendering in
Pen and Ink’ that was the staple of the second half of the 20th century for the technical
stuff that you would need to do for classic pen and ink – uh, steel pin materials and
techniques. It’s a good book and Susan Mayer updated it. Edited it in the 1990s or so and
that is the best book that is a collection of the wisdom that you need. She took out
the stuff like that you can buy this for 29 cents through this –
Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Mail order thing. And it gives you
a series of exercises that may seem very boring but those pages of exercise that you go from
a thin to a thick to a thin line and he has you do these many many times; horizontal,
vertical and then you do them where it’s a consistent thing, then you curve them and
you curve them the opposite way. They may look very rote but they are also meant to
give you such ease with your instrument that when you are then working on the other things
like draftsmanship and cross contours and an expressive technique, you are familiar
enough with your instrument not to be hampered by the lack of familiarity. So, it really
just comes down to practice. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: I just never practice line quality and I so regret it. Stan: These exercises that we mentioned
just now, they’re all kind of boring though, right? Draw lines, draw circles, just squiggles…
Who wants to do that? One thing that I remember I was doing a lot of that is a lot more fun
than that and seems more useful is I would take Jeff Watts’s drawings who has – he’s
one of the best draftsman who’s ever lived I think. Like his line quality is amazing
and I would take one of his drawings, usually a quick sketch because that’s where there’s
no like rendering or anything, it’s just a bunch of lines, real quick lines, and I would
try to copy his line quality. I would look at the way he drew like a – like a deltoid
and it was like thin thick and then a quick little swipe into the arm – into the bicep
or something and I’m like “man, that’s awesome how right at that corner it’s real dark and
thick and then it tapers away.” and then I would try to get that exact line to represent
the deltoids to a bicep. And that seemed much more real, like something tangible. Like there’s
a purpose to me getting that specific line rather than just circles and squiggles. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And I would do an entire quick sketch,
try to match it and it helped a lot. Marshall: That makes sense. It’s like a musician
who has to practice scales, they aren’t that excited about scales though practicing scales
I’m told is an important part of mastery, but then there are musicians that simply choose
the guitarist that they want to be like – Stan: Yeah. Marshall: – and listen to the records and
even slow the records down. Stevie Ray Vaughan and his brother, so in love with those old
blues players and aping their style and aping it enough to where it becomes your own, choosing
great line masters, you do not want to miss out on de Gheyn, you don’t want to miss out
on Guercino, you don’t want to miss out on – oh there’s a whole bunch of them. Albrecht
Dürer stuff is a heavy wood block line for the most part. But there’s so many of those
great old pen masters. Stan: Yeah. Pick your art parent –
Marshall: Yeah. Stan: For line quality and –
Marshall: Just imitate a bunch of their lines until you feel like you own it, then move
on to the next one and move on to the next one. Eventually, you have by imitating grown-ups
become your own grown-up and assimilated each one of them. Stan: And it doesn’t have to be like the thing
that you’re working on now as your line quality, you can just inject it into your everyday
stuff like spend 15 minutes before your drawing session just doing that for the next few months.
And it’s just 15 minutes a day – Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: And you will improve. It’s not like
you have to spend all day and working on your line quality. Marshall: I know, no. Stan: That’s boring. Marshall: It could be counterproductive too. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: It could wear you out with it to
where you don’t enjoy it anymore. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Hey? Stan: Yeah. Marshall: What time is it? Stan: Um… Marshall: I mean, in the – in the episode? Stan: Tool time! Marshall: Uh, no no. Stan: Oh, uh, what’s your thang? Marshall: Yeah. [Chuckles] Can I go first? Stan: Wow! Marshall: Can you believe it? But it occurred
to me while we were talking. Let me tell you what I’ve been into for – since you – since
you released them, the Tim gula demos. Stan: Wooo! Marshall: One of them is like three quarters
of a million views and I never – Stan: Trying to figure out what that number
means. Sean: 750,000. Marshall: 750,000 [Laughter]
Stan: Yeah, I get it now. I – I figured it out Sean: The automatic drawing videos. Marshall: Yeah, that you have a meditative
drawing one but also the other ones since then, I never learned the Reilly method. I
was kind of put off by the formulaic quality of it but there were all these people doing
it and then to watch him demo and see how much is underneath his knowledge and his memorized
rhythms, it was so exciting to see that it got me – so, I watched those things over and
over and with full concentration, turn all the lights out, focus on this guy and just
watch the hand move. And it’s a bit like a construction worker who is used to working
one way, watching a ballet dancer and finding “what a beautiful rhythm this is, wouldn’t
it be nice to dance that way?” and when you did these, where the cameras right on there
to show his lines, I think that could be a really good influence on students. Stan: Yeah, he has great line work. Marshall: Great line work. And also, it’s
also nice to see an old guy who’s so cool. I mean it makes me feel – [Chuckles]
Stan: Oh yeah. Marshall: – good to be an old guy. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Yeah, I really like Tim Gula. Marshall: That he is. Stan: Oh –
Marshall: That’s my thang. Stan: Nice. Marshall: What’s yours? Stan: My thang is durak. [Laughter]
Marshall: I have no idea what that is. It’s like scrum? Stan: Sean likes it. Oh, durak means idiot
in Russian. Marshall: Oh… Stan: Um, it’s a card game. Marshall: Ohhh. Stan: I’m only bringing this up because you
were talking about my team today. Marshall: Okay. Stan: Um, we play it every day at lunch –
Marshall: Mm-hmm. Stan: It’s a card game. Marshall: Uh-huh. Stan: And yeah, we’ve been playing it for
like four years – three or four years now, every lunch. It’s really – Marshall: Three or four years you’ve been playing –
Stan: Everyday Marshall: Idiot in Russian every day and – Stan: Yeah, Idiot yeah. There’s no winners
– Marshall: There’s no winners! Stan: There’s only a loser. Marshall: There’s a – say that again. Stan: There’s only a loser. Marshall: Who lost today. Stan: Who lost today… The last game was
a tie – Sean: Yeah. Stan: The first game –
Sean: Yeah, Charlie lost. Stan: Charlie lost. Marshall: No, that’s a shame. Charlie is a
good guy too. Stan: [Chuckles] What! Everyone loses. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: But he’s an idiot today. Marshall: Oh! Sean: A durak. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Yeah. Sean: Moment of silence for Charlie. [Chuckles]
Marshall: Ok, so this is part of the workings of Proko, is you got all this smart educational
stuff you’re really organized about it but then you have your 45-minute break of Idiocy. Stan: One hour. Marshall: One hour break of idiocy. Stan: One hour where we would play durak. Marshall: Nobody wins… Stan: Well, 15 minutes of it I we go out and
we get our food, we bring it back, we talk –
Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And, yeah. Marshall: And somebody will end up humiliated. Sean: Oh yeah. Stan: It’s usually more than one person in
one day. Sean: Usually is like three games. Stan: Yeah, usually three games. Sean: Yeah, the ultimate humiliation. Stan: The best is three in a row. It’s like someone loses three in a row.
Sean: Someone loses three in a row. Marshall: Has anybody been an idiot three
times in a row? Sean: Oh yeah. Stan: Oh yeah. Triple durak – triple durak
is a thing. Sean. I’ve lost 8 times in a row. Stan: 8? Wait, you – were you the 8 in a row?
Ohhh! Sean: Yeah, Brandon was 8 in a row. Brandon. I’d never lost Stan: Oh yeah, that’s right. He had the longest
streak of never losing – Sean: Three in a row. Stan: Never losing three in a row, because
we’ve all lost three in a row. Sean at that point had lost like three in a row like four
times already and then – and Brandon has never done three in a row and then it was eight
in a row all of a sudden. And we were like “what the…”. It’s like –
Marshall: Isn’t that ironic? Stan: Yeah. Marshall: I tell you life… [Chuckles]
Stan: Yeah. Marshall: Yeah, it doesn’t seem like that
should happen. Brandon is a smart guy. Now, this idiot –
Stan: Well, who – who in our group would you say like “oh yeah, okay, I get, three in a
row” you know? But yeah, come on, give me a name. Marshall: You. Stan: You jerk! Marshall: You know, I was just trying a nice.
Let’s go back to this. Is this a game of chance or a game of skill? You’re still amusing over
the fact that I just uh – Stan: No. I’m plotting my next – [Chuckles]
Sean: Next assault. Stan: Yeah, what’s up? Marshall: Is it a game of chance or does it
really take brains? Stan: There’s a little bit of chance. Speaker 1: It’s like half and half. Stan: But it – if someone is worse at it,
they will lose much more often. Marshall: So a little like poker. Sean: Yeah. Stan: Yeah yeah. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Yeah, yeah. [Chuckles] there’s definitely strategy involved. Marshall: Okay. Stan: If you can think ahead, if you can remember
what happened, you have a much higher chance of winning. Marshall: Okay. Well, this is a new insight
and a bit of a counterpoint to the workings of Proko. Stan: Yeah. You know, we have fun here. Sean: Work hard, play harder. Marshall: I can tell you do. Stan: Yeah. Marshall: There’s a lot of laughter, a lot
of swearing, a lot of eating, a lot of throwing food. [Laughter]
Stan: Yeah. We have this super strict organized scrum system, everyone is like “oh my god,
that place must suck”. But no, I think it’s fun. Do you guys like working here? Marshall: This is the shadow side of it. Stan: What the f*** Sean! Sean: It’s a’ight Stan: what a jerk. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Do I fire Sean every time. Marshall: Pretty much fire him, not every
time but it happens because every time. Sean: See, I fired back with confetti. Stan: That’s true. Marshall: That’s right, he got you. Stan: I find more confetti in here every single
time I come in. There’s a confetti right there. Sean: Look at that… Boom!
[Chuckles] Stan: Whaaa! Marshall: I did pretty well, didn’t I? Stan: You did. Marshall: Yeah. Sean: Almost too well. Marshall: Yeah. [Chuckles]
Stan: No. We were concerned for you for a little bit. You had no reaction, it’s like
if somebody shoots – shoots a gun right at you, you wouldn’t be like –
Marshall: I would casually turn toward it Stan: What just happened? Marshall: It’s a learned response. [Chuckles] so, what should people put in the
comments today? Stan: How do you stay organized… It sounds
lame. Sean: Way to kill the comments section. Stan: What’s your favorite card game? Marshall: Yeah. That’s the fun side –
Sean: What should we play? What’s the next game we should play in the office? Marshall: And for those of us who have not
yet committed to scrum, is there an alternative method that you say “before you do scrum,
do this”. Stan: Mmm, methods of staying organized. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: A lot of people just do lists and Post-it
notes. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: And that works for a lot of people. Marshall: Yeah. Stan: Cool Marshall, thank you for interviewing
me. Marshall: You’re welcome. Thank you for being
interviewed. [Chuckles] thank you for being here with us. [Chuckles]
Stan: Alright. Marshall: Oh, and five stars. Oh gosh, I’m Stan: That was not an improvement. Marshall: No, that was not an improvement. Stan: That was worse than last time. Marshall: You know slipping back
and then watch me next time, you’ll be amazed. Stan: One step back, two steps forward. Marshall: You wait and see what I do next
time, you’ll be pleased. Sean: Wow! Stan: Oh no. Hold on to your butts…

Comments (90)

  1. If you guys are interested in knowing more about the inner workings of Proko, let me know and I’ll try to address it in another episode.

  2. how come marshall doesn't know about their lunch card game when they have filmed so many episodes together?

  3. I'm a simple girl, I see a proko video, I press the like button.

  4. Hey guys just a simple question, Marshall recomended a book that helped him with drawing from imagination, anyone remembers which one it was? I can't find the episode :c

  5. A scrum is a guy who think he’s fly
    -by Destiny’s Child

  6. Please Stan, make an interview with Jeff Watts some day!

  7. تحيا للجزائر

  8. Is nice to see scrum being used somewhere else out of software development! =)

  9. Stan could be Marshall's son

    Please let it be true

  10. ,🌟🌟🌟🌟🌟
    Marshall you are definitely 🆒 & probably a riot to hang out with! And yes, Stan too! 😎

  11. I'm interested in knowing when you're going to allow Steve Huston to do a drawing course on

  12. Thoroughly enjoyed this one 😂😂

  13. Are you guys like… You know, doing it? Cause I sense that kind of vibe between you.

  14. An episode in composition! ❤🔥❤ and keep on rocking guys!!!!

  15. For the Halloween episode you have to dress up as each other

  16. great episode as always guys! a little let down since i thought you were going to talk about mike mignola because of the books on the table,
    and on organizing,, yeah, im not the best, but having a little notebook and writing the most important stuff to do the next day is very helpful

  17. Like the podcast. Thanks!
    A Hellboy book is on the table. Thought it would be mentioned)

  18. only like 35min? wth

  19. Give the game Love Letter a try. It's cheap, and it's fast, and it's a lot of fun.

  20. Most boring and shortest draftsmen episode at the same time.

  21. For those who are interested in project mnagement and want to widen their understanding of what is being discussed from 5:32 to 7:26, I have a great video for you. Just search the following on YouTube: "Introduction to Scrum – 7 Minutes". Scrum is basically an implementation of Agile and the said video best describes it in my opinion. Also note that everything Stan said about Scrum is true too.

    In addition to Scrum there are several other implementations of Agile and they can be COMBINED. Below are a few of them (very specific to software development though):
    – Rapid Application Development
    – Adaptive Software Development & Continuous Integration
    – eXtreme Programming
    – Test-Driven Development
    – Feature-Driven Development
    – Behavior-Driven Development
    – and more

  22. This show is so good and inspiring!

  23. How can I send you guys a voicemail? I have a couple questions I'd like you to answer

  24. Marshall leaning into the bare feet thing real hard.

  25. Im intrested in how you got in art as a kid and how did you start to practise.

  26. The way hes laying down to me is so funny I dont know y

  27. Marshall sometimes sounds like spaceghost

  28. great episode, great energy everyone!

  29. I need the light and shading course!

  30. Such a fun podcast. Thanks guys! Only negative is the animation in the beginning doesn't look like you guys at all. What is supposed to be Marshall looks more like Hesh from Sopranos.

  31. More more i wanna know more

  32. lol these episodes are so great and deserve more views

  33. who did that horse drawing it looks better than any of Proko"s work.

  34. i want this, but for marshall

  35. Bringing in another guest into the show would be cool to see so many experienced teachers conversation.

  36. Gwent is my favorite card game.

  37. Terbiye li otur la büyük var karşında

  38. Thank you for picking my voicemail! That Arthur Guptill book seems to be exactly what I need. Doing simple exercises like those really relax me. I work mostly with steel nib and brush, so the techniques are definitely applicable. Also hearing the way to go about copying lines styles from masters was super helpful. I've done a bunch of composition studies, but never tried to copy the lines of the artist. Thank you so much!

  39. 19:49 Marshall is like: "Don't interrupt my catchfrase"

  40. Kanban is a less iterative form of the Agile methodology.

  41. That amount of comfortable is making me uncomfortable 😂

  42. When Stan said DURAK without the accent, in my mind appeared association with the movie not the card game. ))))

  43. Show us your process of shooting and editing

  44. i havent read or listened to it all but…..u need to do some artwork describing ur scrum system.

  45. 24:21 "who wants to do that ?"… well, I want to do that ! It's kind of relaxing, and when you don't feel like drawing anything, you can stop thinking, draw lines and circles, and have the satisfaction of practicing anyway

  46. You guys should try play Munchkin! Is really fun with cool concepts and illustrations.

  47. I'm gonna put myself to cryosleep so I can be alive a 1000 years from now when Prokos drapery and perspective courses come out.

  48. Ive never played that card game but I bet you guys would love the game coup. Very short games that would work great for lunch breaks

  49. You should Play BARTOG, Me and my friends played it every lunchtime for at least 3 years in secondary school. It's basically UNO with a standard deck of cards (with or w/out Joker, it's up to you), a lot of starting rules, and after each round, the winner makes up another rule that you don't disclose to the other players, so they have to work it out (this is the most fun part of the game apart from making ridiculous rules that people have to abide by).

    Anyone can enforce the rules, and breaking rules (if you get caught) will get you an extra card while the enforcer will say 'failure to "catchy rule name". For example, someone sets a rule that on playing an Ace, you have to get up from the table, flap your arms like wings and spin around while saying "I'm a fairy booshaka booshaka booshaka", but a player fails to do this because they don't know what the rule is yet, so you would say "Failure to Funky Fairy" (alliteration is always fun).

    Starting rules:
    -No swearing
    -No cheating (blatantly looking at people's cards etc.
    -No discussing the rules (unless in a point of order, which can be called into action by saying "point of order").
    -No saying Point of Order during a Point of order unless dismissing the Point of order (Say P.O.O instead)
    -No touching cards during a point of order (point of order ends when someone says "point of order over"
    -No violence (striking others etc.)
    -Don't touch the cards before the dealer
    -You must say "last card" when you have one card left
    -You must say "Bartog" when you play your last card, if you don't and someone penalises you it will count as a "failure to win" and you receive 3 cards instead of just one.
    -Start with 5 cards

  50. Hey there i have a Q for you on delegation, what do/would you do when someone you hire is 95% good and has the right culture, but they have dropped the ball a couple times on projects in ways that just can't fly. I hate the idea of checking their work with a "red pen" or having to schedule a meeting weekly to ask them if they did all of their jobs EG: following up with their interlocking people for the projects. But… getting an angry email from a large corporate client b/c my employee went MIA for 2 weeks is super unacceptable. GRRRRRRR. thoughts?

  51. I'd rather have 'project management for artists' as a course, that way any artist can benefit from it, no matter if they want to go into the business side of it or not

  52. fun episode make more !

  53. @18:16 I know you said it as a joke… but seriously, you're one of very few artist/entrepreneuers I know of, and as you said, there are others that can teach the basics better than you can. If you did make a buisiness management for artists course I would buy it, I can find the fundamentals many other places. Art entreprenuership is something you'd have a good market niche in.

  54. DURAK: What are the RULES?????

  55. Favourite duo on the internet.

  56. My favourite card game is Belot – it's also called Bella in some countries. Kinda hard to grasp at first since the rules make literally no sense, but it's overall really fun.

  57. Gabong is a great card game originally played by pilots to keep their reaction skills sharp.

  58. Dear proko any advice for an artist that just turned 20? (and wants to become pro)

  59. there just can be one card game —- magic the gathering, combining strategy, fun and art !!!!

  60. I was stunned for a second when Stan loudly said "Дурак" without an accent. Greetings from Russia! In the next episode bring Lotto or dominoes 😀

  61. Play picteureka in the office

  62. I thought about working on my line quality many times, but there are also a lot of other things that I have to do. I wonder if it actually matters, guys like Jim Lee 'look' for their lines, erase a lot, but when they find them, they do find them. Practicing line quality, or drawing? Practicing line quality, or painting? Practicing line quality, or shading?
    Well, you get the point. Time is short… too short. I hope you talk about this one day during your podcasts.

  63. Janky horse picture driving me nutz

  64. Can u make tutorial on how to look for gesture on symmetrical poses…pose which are photographed straight ahead without any angles.
    I'm having trouble to derive forms and draw gesture out of it.

  65. Please come out with a course on perspective drawing !!

  66. How may I send an audio-message? Just call the number in the description?

  67. ohhh My thing is same thing as Marshal's!

  68. Wow. Did I hear Loginov. Well done Proko!

  69. Dude is banking off the the classes

  70. Stan,I love your stuff but you really need to pick up an art history book,Jeff Wats should never be considered among the best draftsmen who have ever lived.

  71. Thank you Proko for everything!
    You are helpful and funny and you made me optimistic!
    Just love you and your team and wish you the best 😘😘

  72. yes definitely a course on business management for artist.

  73. Favorite Card Game:
    CARDS AGAINST HUMANITY (10/10 would recommend)

  74. A conversation striving to become profound and very useful and unexpected to millions of people, and then, Stan. God dammit

  75. Hey Proko, see if you can get the legendary Adrian Smith to do some workshops for you. Would love to see/hear that man's inner workings & techniques.

  76. Scrum is a logistical framework for working in teams, but it's mostly used in Tech where projects need to be developed quickly with a lot of moving parts working in tandem. I think it's interesting that Stan is trying to apply it outside of tech.

  77. Oh my god, yes for дурак, I love this podcast so much:)

  78. So basically a master list and an art version of an editorial calendar mixed with storyboarding.

  79. For individuals trying to learn to organize and move things forward, I always recommend Trello because it is great for smaller amounts of work, and it is more intuitive and psychologically rewarding to move task cards from column to column along the person's personalized paths of completion.

  80. Why do I see Markiplier with a white beard in the thumbnail O.o

  81. Season 2 will begin on April 7 and on it’s own YouTube channel… Be sure to subscribe!

  82. Dear Proko, no disrespect, but you have announced so many courses, and you haven't really launched (nor finished) most of them. It feels like you're really giving up on courses, and working on other stuff. You seem to be doing a thousand things but finishing none. I'm still waiting for that basics course. There's a lot of info on the internet, but yours is really high quality, so I'd really like to work with you. But you announce, and announce, and announce and then… nothing! It feels as if you're playing with our ilusions, man! It kind of kills your credibility.

  83. i love this podcast so much i cant wait for season 2

  84. I'm happy to be alive during a time where I can learn from so many artists online

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